Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

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Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Mon 26 Dec 2011 23:49

I wrote it (with quotation marks) just the way they wrote it in the studies that is soo often :roll: discussed in this forum.

Early/acute Lyme is not cured every time either. Not everyone with remaining symptoms have PLDS (or something else).

Maybe someone misunderstood me? But I was only trying to explain the definitions.

But if we want to understand why Lyme can last for a long time, and how hard to cure it is (=how long treatment that is needed), you probably will not find soo many answers in any studies on early Lyme.

Yes, we already have people in this forum that understand this! :D

But I also have seen people that don't understand it! I know many Swedish persons that over and over again only look in studies made on early/acute B Garinii-neuroborreliosis, and think that they will find info about late B Afzelii-Lyme in them. I have already told you about "the Swedish problem", which is that soo many Swedish "Lymies" and Swedish physicians, think that neuroborreliosis is another word for chronic/late Lyme!

But, of course it is possible that some of the cases with early Lyme is not cured (when it comes to treatment that is) too.

Not as many with early Lyme as when it comes to late Lyme, but they also do exist!
Last edited by X-member on Wed 8 Feb 2012 18:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Mon 26 Dec 2011 23:55

I have to add:

I Sweden the physicians often give penicilin V, in the earliest Lyme stage, but this ABX is not enough if the Lyme infection already is disseminated.

So, early Lyme can also become late or chronic, if the patient have had an inadequate treatment in an early stage!

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Wed 28 Dec 2011 19:39

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15336225
Lancet Infect Dis. 2004 Sep;4(9):575-83.
Molecular survival strategies of the Lyme disease spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi.
Singh SK, Girschick HJ.
SourceDepartment of Paediatric Rheumatology, Children's Hospital, University of Würzburg, Germany.

Abstract
Lyme disease is a tick-transmitted disease caused by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi. The bacterium adopts different strategies for its survival inside the immunocompetent host from the time of infection until dissemination in different parts of body tissues. The success of this spirochete depends on its ability to colonise the host tissues and counteract the host's defence mechanisms. During this process borrelia seems to maintain its vitality to ensure long-term survival in the host. Borrelia's proteins are encoded by plasmid and chromosomal genes. These genes are differentially regulated and expressed by different environmental factors in ticks as well as in the mammalian host during infection. In addition, antigenic diversity enables the spirochete to escape host defence mechanisms and maintain infection. In this review we focus on the differential expression of proteins and genes, and further molecular mechanisms used by borrelia to maintain its survival in the host. In light of these pathogenetic mechanisms, further studies on spirochete host interaction are needed to understand the complex interplay that finally lead to host autoimmunity.

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Jan 2012 23:47

http://medtextfree.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... ospirosis/

"Chapter 167 – Spirochete Infections: Lyme Disease and Leptospirosis"

Quote (but it is more info on the site):
The third or late stage of disease can occur after a long disease-free period, which can be months to years, and may involve recurrent manifestations. Late stage can occur in spite of early antibiotic treatment. The hallmark manifestation of this stage is chronic, relapsing arthritis.[1] [7] [8] [9] [10] The knee is the joint most commonly affected ( Fig. 167-2 ). Skin changes include a rash known as acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans, which eventually resolves, leaving atrophy of the skin and underlying structures. Late neurological manifestations in this stage include encephalopathy, demyelination, and dementia. The ocular manifestations occur in all three stages, and they are summarized in Table 167-1 .

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Mon 23 Jan 2012 19:51

http://www.praxis-berghoff.de/dokumente ... glisch.pdf
Deutsche Borreliose Gesellschaft
Universität Karlsruhe (TH)
Am Fasanengarten 5
76131 Karlsruhe
Germany

To
IDSA Lyme Disease Review Panel
lyme@idsociety.org

The Deutsche Borreliose Gesellschaft e.V. (German Society of Lyme-Borreliosis) has
objections to the IDSA Guidelines 2006. The objections relate to the late lyme
disease (LD), chronic lyme borreliosis and the so-called post lyme syndrome.
How do you say? Snip? ;)

I give you a quote (you find the rest of the info on the link):
The following facts suggest the existence of a chronic lyme borreliosis due to
vital Borrelia:

o Persistent symptoms of an LB with identification despite intensive
antibiotic treatment (28-46)

o Members of the Deutsche Borreliose Gesellschaft have documented
150 such cases
(ISBN 978-3-640-19378-3, submitted to Future Drugs,
Expert Review of antiinfective therapy)

o Borrelia could still be identified in the skin even after multiple antibiotic
treatment with ceftriaxone, doxycycline and cefotaxime
(47-49)

o There is an extensive body of literature on the existence of a chronic
lyme borreliosis
(45, 50-55)

o The pathogen could be cultured in every stage of LB (28-44), even after
intensive antibiotic treatment (20, 41, 56-60)

o The resistance of Bb to numerous antibiotics has been proven (61)

o Numerous publications deal with chronic LB and the problems of its
antibiotic treatment (20, 48-49, 62-66)

o The antibiotic treatment of EM displays a therapeutic failure rate of 10%
(15, 41, 45, 47, 67-74)

o There is a high therapeutic failure rate for the antibiotic treatment of
lyme borreliosios in its late phase
(52, 54-56, 65, 75-77)

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Wed 8 Feb 2012 17:53

Henry wrote (in another topic):
What I find to be appalling is that some LLMDs are now constructing prolonged and expensive therapeutic regimens to treat what they claim to be chronic Lyme disease....
In this topic you, Henry find info about WHAT chronic Lyme disease is!

It is the same thing as late Lyme disease!

The LLMD:s don't claim (as you say), they KNOW that the patient have been sick for a long time (=chronic or late borreliosis).

You can not say to anyone that if they have had an active, uncured borreliosis for a long time, that it is not late Lyme disease!

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Wed 8 Feb 2012 19:43

Bagge wrote (in another topic):
so-called chronic Lyme patients
You can find the right info here in this topic, too!

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Thu 9 Feb 2012 15:23

Henry wrote (in the wrong topic again):
Dr. MacDonald states that "biofilms" may explain may explain... " why these pathogens can be so difficult to eradicate with short courses of antibiotics." So, we really have two hypotheses, since there is no evidence that the persistent symptoms associated with "chronic Lyme disease" are due to a persistent infection. If extended antibiotic therapy can not cure a non-existent persistent infection, then one has to invoke some other mechanism ("biofilms") to keep that hypothesis alive. If that fails, then one can imagine all sorts of co-infections for which there also is no objective evidence ....... And so it goes, on and on and on ........as long as there are gullible "believers" who are willing to throw away their money and hopes on "quack" remedies and unproven hypotheses. Talk is cheap and it is easy to propose all sorts of zany hypotheses. However, doing the hard and rigorous work to prove them and subjecting the results to rigorous peer review is quite another matter and is sadly in short supply here.
You can find info about what late lyme disease is in this topic!

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by Camp Other » Mon 13 Feb 2012 4:39

Hey Carina, have you seen this reference before?

"Among the dominant genospecies of Bb isolated in the FVG region is Borrelia afzelii, with its known tropism for the skin (Ciceroni et al, 2001). The predominance of Borrelia afzelii in cutaneous lesions in LD has been already reported in several European countries (Rijpkema et al, 1997; Robertson et al, 1999; Ruzic-Sabljic et al, 2000; Ornstein et al, 2001). Strains of this intracellular pathogen can survive the adaptive immune response and persist in the skin despite a strong host antibody response (Pachner et al, 2004)."

From http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v94/n ... 2997a.html

According to the IDSA, Borrelia burgdorferi is extracellular.
According to a number of researchers I've read, Borrelia burgdorferi is mostly extracellular - which means it is occasionally intracellular.
According to this paper in Nature, Borrelia afzelii is intracellular.

How many publications can you list that state Borrelia afzelii is intracelluar, and how was this determination made?

Do you know, Carina?

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Re: Of course "chronic Lyme disease" exist

Post by X-member » Mon 13 Feb 2012 15:11

CO, you wrote:
"Among the dominant genospecies of Bb isolated in the FVG region is Borrelia afzelii, with its known tropism for the skin (Ciceroni et al, 2001). The predominance of Borrelia afzelii in cutaneous lesions in LD has been already reported in several European countries (Rijpkema et al, 1997; Robertson et al, 1999; Ruzic-Sabljic et al, 2000; Ornstein et al, 2001). Strains of this intracellular pathogen can survive the adaptive immune response and persist in the skin despite a strong host antibody response (Pachner et al, 2004)."
Thank you for the info above!

When it comes to intracellular or not, maybe you can find some info here:

"Intracellular Lyme"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... racellular

But I have only posted what I have found, and I don't know so very much about this!

I take pictures of the bacteria, and I don't have all the answers (yet).

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