Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
rlstanley
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by rlstanley » Sun 6 Apr 2008 17:53

I have seen condemnation of Dr. Barthold's work that it hasn't gone far enough or doesn't take this and that into consideration or whatever. He's aware of the literature, that is for sure. He's aware of what the patients go through, that's for sure.

The guy is trying to find what is going on at the cellular level in an animal model so that treatments can be developed to help those who have symptoms or on-going infection or an explanation of relapse.

What he is trying to do is inject some sane and rational work into trying to find these basics out.

He is being deliberatly cautious because he must work within the framework of his data and what is in the literature. He is not wildly extrapolating or interpolating like so much you see in LymeLand. When you do that, you go backwards. And you experiment on patients unwisely. I've seen way too much of that over the years.

No one condemned Straubinger's dog work which this supports. That is decent basic research as well:

Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in experimentally infected dogs after antibiotic treatment.

Abstract: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=229521

Full text: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picren ... obtype=pdf

In addition, there is additional supportive evidence that is not yet published (you'll read about it in June).

This kind of research is few and far between.

The hit and miss medicine done to Lyme patients (like use of Plaquenil or multiple antibiotics simultaneously or Levaquin for presumed bartonella, etc) that have basis only in theories will not bring real answers.

Rita
Last edited by rlstanley on Tue 13 May 2008 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

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LymeEnigma
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by LymeEnigma » Sun 6 Apr 2008 18:49

rlstanley wrote:
If you research hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) you will find that it is an antimalarial and has anti-inflammatory and immune-modulating properties. I suspect that has more to do with whatever successful outcomes seen. There are many unsuccessful outcomes as well and problems taking the drug.

BTW he also suggested using Amantadine to adjust intracellular ph as well. Occasionally you'll still hear of folks prescribed this without any idea as to why.
I went into treatment with the understanding that the Plaquenil might affect my symptoms due to its immune-modulating anti-inflammatory effects, but also with the idea that it could also possibly catalyze the effectiveness of the zithro. I know that Burrascano and a few others have made some unreferenced assertions on said catalyzing proterties, and back when I first was researching this I gave those assertions much more weight than I do now. Either way, the combination did a number on my symptoms, many of which still have not returned.

Thanks for posting the studies, but I was thinking of one that specifically used zithromax and plaquenil for six months. It was peer-reviewed. I wish I could find it ... maybe I've just lost my mind. :roll:

The above brings up another important point: researchers really ought to be studying not only the antimicrobial effects of the meds that seem to help chronic Lyme, but also the role of immune-modulating and anti-inflammatory properties in those meds. It seems to me that a more eclectic approach may be needed if they're going to cover all bases and treatment options.

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LymeEnigma
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by LymeEnigma » Fri 18 Apr 2008 17:25

Another news article just came out, covering the recent Bb/white-footed mouse study and offering a different possible insight:
The study found the hidden bacteria, however, appeared dormant, although it still produced proteins potentially capable of continuing Lyme disease symptoms, he said.

The article appeared in the March issue of the journal Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, and the research was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

The findings provide critical data in the quest to offer relief for those certain they're suffering from the sometimes crippling symptoms of Lyme disease years after their initial infection and subsequent treatment. Patients with these chronic symptoms often report joint inflammation and arthritis, memory loss, mood changes and sleep disorders, among other health problems.

Some also fear they face a similar fate as those with untreated Lyme disease — including carditis, also called heart inflammation, and nerve damage.
Whole article: http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateoco ... ci_8956433

rlstanley
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by rlstanley » Fri 18 Apr 2008 17:51

Another news article just came out, covering the recent Bb/white-footed mouse study and offering a different possible insight:
Same study, just different media spin.

People got distraught at the first article that had a misleading title, and I saw them dissing Dr. Barthold all over the place.

Best thing to do is write the author and get a copy of the article.

* To whom correspondence should be addressed: Email: swbarthold@ucdavis.edu

Dr. Barthold is doing decent research, and he is quite brave to be doing it since conventional medicine does not accept the possiblity of persistence of infection at all following 'curative' treatment.

I commend what he is doing. I'm thrilled to see decent basic research, so lacking in LymeLand.

Rita
Last edited by rlstanley on Tue 13 May 2008 21:50, edited 1 time in total.

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LymeEnigma
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by LymeEnigma » Fri 18 Apr 2008 18:56

Thanks for that. It is interesting to see how different sources will spin the same info....

Joe Ham
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Re: Persistence of Bb after antibiotic treatment (murine model)

Post by Joe Ham » Wed 25 Mar 2009 18:53

Just parking this here so that I can find it again and also refer to it.

I find the term 'persistence' to be more productive than 'chronic' when searching for credible research on PubMed or Google Scholar. Some authors may be reluctant to use the word 'chronic' because of the political debate that attaches to it thanks to IDSA.

Note the authors and the date of publication.
Rev Infect Dis. 1989 Sep-Oct;11 Suppl 6:S1518-25.
A perspective on the treatment of Lyme borreliosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2682965

Luft BJ, Gorevic PD, Halperin JJ, Volkman DJ, Dattwyler RJ.
Department of Medicine, University of New York, Stony Brook 11794-8153.

Lyme borreliosis has become the most common tick-borne infection in the United States. Although both beta-lactam and tetracycline antibiotics have been shown to be effective in the treatment of this spirochetosis, the development of optimal therapeutic modalities has been hampered by the lack of reliable microbiologic or immunologic criteria for the diagnosis or cure of this infection. In vitro sensitivity studies have been performed by several laboratories, but there has been no standardization of the methodology for measuring either inhibitory or bactericidal levels.

Clinical studies have documented the efficacy of antibiotics, but therapy has failed in as many as 50% of cases of chronic infection.

Although new antibiotic regimens appear promising, the optimal treatment of this infectious disease remains to be determined. In this report we review the clinical and experimental rationale for the antibiotic regimens that we currently use and the need for a more standardized approach to treatment trials.
See also:
Phenotypic mechanisms
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 98&p=17647

Early invasion of the brain
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =83&p=9890

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