Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
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Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 17:24

Henry wrote (in another topic):
I am a microbiologiost by training and I can tell you quite definitely and with certainty that NO bacteria -- including Borrelia-- form cysts. That is just nonsense.
So, I asked:
How it is possible to take pictures of, or film something that don't exist?

If the "thing" that forms in the end of the spiro (on YouTube) is not a cyst, so tell me/us what it is then? Maybe we all (including Brorson, Norway) are stupid? And have to be educated by someone that know this better, so that we use the correct term instead, like we had to learn not to use the term chronic (= of long duration) Lyme?

Tell us the correct term then!

Thank you!
Last edited by X-member on Thu 9 Aug 2012 17:41, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 17:45

And, I have had almost the same stupid discusson with another bacteriologist before, he has used a number of different names in a number of Lyme forum.

I give you info (that tell us that this has happened before):

http://www.actionlyme.org/IDSA_CYST_VIABLE.htm

I don't know if it is one single person that do this, or a couple of persons with the same stupid arguments.

But, when a person say he is a bacteriologist or a microbiologist, then he should be able to give us the correct term, instead of repeat almost the same phrase over and over again (in many Lyme forum) like a parrot!

My question (again):

If it is not a cyst, what is it then?

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 17:50

We have now got an answer (in another topic):
What you and others call "cysts" are really those amorphous forms that develop when Borrelia -- or any other bacterium for that matter-- are subjected to antibiotics or grown under stressful nutrient deprived conditions. You would have a hard time finding them when Borrelia are grown in the absence of antibiotics.

Borrelia don't really have a rigid cell wall like gram positive bacteria; however, they do have a membrane component that gives it some rigidity and its spiral shape. The synthesis of this somewhat rigid cell membrane component is adversely effected by antibiotic therapy, which then results in the development of these various amorphous shapes. In the 1950s when all of this was first described, such forms were called spheroplasts,or protoplasts, or L-forms -- not cysts which are entirely different matter all together. They are not part of the natural growth cycle of Borrelia which reproduce by binary fission as do all other bacteria; rather, these amorphous products are really dead or dying cells that will soon disappear.

When isolated very early during antibiotic therapy, it is sometimes possible to transfer these forms to medium that is rich in protein -- or highly isotonic-- and rescue them, i.e., to get them to regenerate or revert back to typical spirochetes. But, that is possible only within a short or narrow time frame, even in the case of typical gram positive bacteria. There is no evidence that these amorphous forms have any clinical significance; since they lack the plasmids required to make them infectious, they can not produce disease when transferred to healthy animals. Treatment with more or other types of antibiotics (like flagyl) is not likely to eliminate these forms that -- for all practical purposes-- are end stage products, i.e., they are the remnants of dead or dying bacterial cells.

So, that is the true story about these "cyst form". They are not formed by Borrelia in the absence of antibiotics and have not been demonstrated to be infectious or to have clinical significance.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 17:54

Quote (from the text above):
They are not formed by Borrelia in the absence of antibiotics
How is Lyme treated?

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 18:16

This discussion started when I told about a picture from my blood, that was (as I told) on a spiro and a cyst.

And, now the problem is solved!

Lyme "cyst forms" exist, and the first answer I got from this member was (probably) only to make me feel stupid!

Thank you, for that!
Last edited by X-member on Fri 30 Dec 2011 18:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 18:23

This member also say:
When isolated very early during antibiotic therapy, it is sometimes possible to transfer these forms to medium that is rich in protein -- or highly isotonic-- and rescue them, i.e., to get them to regenerate or revert back to typical spirochetes. But, that is possible only within a short or narrow time frame, even in the case of typical gram positive bacteria.
How short time?

Can this happen a while after a 14 days (= Swedish treatment for neuroborreliois and arthritis) of abx treatment?

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by Henry » Fri 30 Dec 2011 18:37

I'm sorry. I just don't understand your thought process and what you are trying to say.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 18:50

Henry, wrote:
I'm sorry. I just don't understand your thought process and what you are trying to say.
I give you some info instead:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/the-c ... me-disease
A more basic study showing the inadequacy of doxycycline goes back to 1989, in an abstract from Austria. Here, the researcher incubated a live culture of Borrelia burgdorferi with doxycycline for two weeks. The culture appeared to be dead, as both motility and reproduction had ceased. The culture did not have the appearance, however, of the amoxicillin treated culture, which was filled with Lysed cells. So, using micropore filters, the researcher filtered doxycycline treated cultures, and separated the intact Borrelia from the supernatant. He then washed them, and placed the filtrate back into fresh culture media. Over two thirds of the cultures reactivated, becoming motile and beginning to reproduce. It appeared that doxycycline immobilized the bacteria by interrupting protein syntheses and metabolism. This pushed the cells into a non-metabolic state. Since the doubling rate is often used as a means of determining if the cells are alive, it was assumed that the cultures were dead, when they were in fact just dormant.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 22:08

I better explain this for those of you who read the info in the post above and have early lyme (or still have a good immune defence in a late stage). It is not only the abx that "do the job", it is your immune defence together with the abx that do the job (in the majority of the cases).

To see how it works outside the body, is NOT the same thing as inside the body, but this (the info in the post above) can explain why many complicated (probably late) Lyme cases are not cured, especially if there is something that put down the immune system (some co-infection maybe?), or an immune deficiency (like in my case).

Many people that don't understand this, think that it can not be any live bacteria left after treatment, and they often claim that too, and/or give us explanations that actually are not true.

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Re: Info about Lyme cysts

Post by X-member » Fri 30 Dec 2011 23:32

Brorson (and Co) info:

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/44/18656.full
We reexamine evidence and point to mainly Russian studies ignored in English scientific literature that spirochete round bodies (RBs, also called coccoid bodies, globular bodies, spherical bodies, cysts, granules, L-forms, sphaeroplasts, or vesicles) are fully viable. RBs are spherical, membrane-bounded structures that appear in pure cultures as they age in proportion to the disappearance of helical forms. They tend to be immotile or less motile than typical helical-shaped spirochetes although they twitch and may move laterally. Analysis by thin section transmission electron microscopy (tsTEM) has revealed the presence of coiled protoplasmic cylinders and flagella inside RBs that lead investigators to hypothesize that they are pleiomorphic stages of spirochetes (1) or that they are moribund. Anglophone medical discussion of spirochetoses (spirochete-associated infirmities, such as Lyme disease or syphilis) omit mention of “round bodies” or state that they have no clinical relevance (2). Yet evidence abounds not only that RBs are viable but also that they may locomote, grow, and reproduce.

Spirochetes threatened by environmental insult form RBs. Unfavorable conditions include changes in solution chemistry: acidity-alkalinity, salts, gas composition; concentrations of antibiotics, sugars, or other organic compounds such as amino acids. Transition from one growth medium to a second of different viscosity or temperature stimulates the formation of RBs. Starvation, threat of desiccation, exposure to oxygen gas, total anoxia and/or sulfide may induce RB formation (3–13). RBs revert to the active helical swimmers when favorable conditions that support growth return (3–5).
More to read on the site!

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